THE FOX RECORD

By Upasaka Kuo Chan

--The record of the meeting between Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua and

Mr. Harry W. Fox, father of Dharma Master Heng Chien. Transcribed

by the Sino-American Buddhist Association from the notes of

Upasaka Kuo Chan.—

Mr. Fox was invited to lunch at the Buddhist Lecture Hall in San Francisco on September 24^th, 1969, by his son, Dharma Master Heng Chien, on behalf of Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua. Mr. Fox arrived at ten o’clock. After a quiet meal, tea was served and conversation began. A comment about sleep occasioned Mr. Fox to say:

"Where I work there is a great deal of noise. Strangely enough, at night, when it is quiet, I am sensitive to the smallest sound, even the turning of a doorknob, and occasionally I hear sounds in my sleep."

MASTER: "Whenever the slightest sensation is experienced through the doors of the senses a ‘seed’ is introduced into the store, or eighth, conciousness. It is planted there in the field of the eighth consciousness and stored. Although these seeds are mere shadows of sense objects, they can later be discriminated by the sixth consciousness. Therefore, the sixth consciousness, the intellect, may continuously recollect sensations, even though the sense object is no longer present. States of mind such as the one you have mentioned arise because the intellect discriminates; if discrimination ceases, these states also cease.

 

"If you are not attached to these false states, your worries and afflictions will be diminished. After doing something, forget it and go on to the next matter. Nothing should be taken as ultimately real. In the DIAMOND SUTRA, it says:

 

As stars, a fault of vision, as a lamp,

A mock show, dew drops, or a bubble,

A dream, a lightning flash, or a cloud,

So should one view what is conditions."

 

MR. Fox: "When it is hot, we are comfortable wearing few clothes. However, when it is cold, if we are not warmly dressed, we shiver. If it is cold outside, then in our minds there is cold. It is hot outside, then in our minds there is hot. The states of hot and cold certainly seem real."

 

MASTER: "If your intellect does not discriminate between hot and cold, they do not exist. When hot and cold do not exist, who feels either one? The same principle is true of all conditions. If we refrain from making unnecessary distinctions, our original peace of mind remains undisturbed."

 

MR. FOX: "How does technological progress relate to Buddhism? As times change, new things are invented, and there is progress. Each man is an individual who creates different things. Each of us has been given a mind meant to be used; minds continually think."

 

MASTER: "Yes, there certainly has been a great deal of progress in technology, but there is something which is even more important than technological progress. Where does ‘progress’ lead us? In five hundred years, all present day inventions will be obsolete, and entirely new inventions will be in use. When everything has been invented, what will man do then?

 

"The important point here is one of priority. Should society serve man or should man serve society? In the existing order, men devote their efforts to maintain society, but society disregards the suffering and murder men. This is a grave error. When society serves the needs of man, the world functions peacefully. When the world functions peacefully, man is free to contemplate his self-nature and consider the essential problem, the problem of birth and death.

 

"You should know where you came from and where you are going. As it is, ‘murky we come and confused we go.’ It is important to investigate the self-nature by reflecting inwardly. If you practice inward contemplation, then no longer will you be moved by the confusion of society. When you see your self-nature, you will naturally understand science and philosophy."

 

MR. FOX: "This certainly sounds ideal, but I don’t think that all men can become of one mind in this pursuit. We are all different. Each individual has his own natural inclinations, and it is not certain that all men can accomplish this work."

 

MASTER: "You are absolutely right. Only a few people have the ‘roots’, the natural inclination and ability, to study and practice the Great Vehicle Buddhadharma. For that matter, few people even encounter it. Among those, fewer yet can practice and penetrate its principles. It is difficult, but if we can do what is most difficult, that is true accomplishment. Some people come to study and stay for a few days, but they are unable to endure and have to leave.

 

"If one person understands true principle, then he can do what has to be done. If ten people understand true principle, then they can do what has to be done. Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, in teaching and transforming living beings, do not worry if the teachings are not received. If people understand and become enlightened, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are happy. If no one understands and nobody becomes enlightened, then the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are still happy.

 

"Greed prevents man from solving the essential problems. It obscures his vision of the self-nature. For example, one of my disciples wants to learn about spiritual power, but as long as he is greedy for spiritual power, he will be unable to obtain it.

 

"Now the Buddhadharma is scarce in the West. All unenlightened people are confused about something, and only the proper Dharma can resolve this confusion. It follows that your son’s decision to become a bhiksu and study the Dharma is extremely important.

 

"Where does confusion come from? Greed is the basic cause: greed for food, sleep, beautiful forms, wealth and fame. Everyone has desires which are based on greed, and it is difficult to put them down. I teach my disciples to be strong in the control of desire. However, I do not use force. I merely show them the way. Whether or not they follow is up to them. To teach a method which is contrary to this would be like using a rock to beat down grass. If you try to keep down grass by pounding on it with a stone, it grows back thick and strong. Rather than do that, I go after the roots, the basic causes."

 

MR. FOX: "I admire the principles which you have spoken and the students who work so vigorously to study them. Previously I was worried about my son, but now I am at ease."

 

MASTER: "When you go back to work, do not worry about things that are already past. While doing things, use your wisdom to ensure that they are done well. When they are completed, do not continue to think about them. Quiet your mind. It is best to view life as a play, and not think of it as being too real; then fewer worries and problems will bother you. You will be able to come and go with freedom and independence. If what is good and what is not good are seen as fundamentally without difference, then you are without problems, without the slightest bit of trouble. If you discriminate good as good, and not good as not good, then you are turned by external states of mind. If you run after these outside states, then the more you run, the further you stray from your original home. If you are not moved, you remain in your original home. View your body as if it were heaven and earth. Although heaven and earth include between them all the ten thousand things, nevertheless they are not separate. If you understand this principle, nothing in the world can torment or worry you. Isn’t this wonderful?

 

"Dharma, the teaching of the Buddha, universally penetrates. There are no fixed dharmas. Dharma is constant like the water of a river which flows smoothly on and is not attached in any place. If you say that a dharma is fixed, then it immediately becomes a dead dharma. The DIAMOND SUTRA says, ‘One should, not dwelling anywhere, produce a thought.’ This is what is meant by ‘no fixed dharma’.

 

"An example of an unfixed dharma is the relationship between parents and children which is established by parents in such a way that children will be filial and respectful. But some children beat and kill their parents. How then can this dharma of filial piety be fixed? Some parents frequently scold their children. Others think their children are wonderful, and spoil them. Neither of these follows the way of filial piety, so this dharma is not fixed among parents either. Nothing is permanent or certain.

 

"We have discussed technological progress. Man has invented many things which are of great benefit. However, man has also invented hydrogen and atomic bombs. With these have come various bizarre diseases which are difficult to cure. Modern conveniences bring both benefit and disaster. Therefore, in the midst of good there is bad; in the midst of bad there is good.

 

"Before there were trains and buses, there were no derailments or bus accidents; consequently, no one was killed in such disasters. People used to die at home. Now there are far more untimely, unexpected deaths. Airplanes suddenly fall out of the sky. This is just like eating people. Long ago, there were more tigers to worry about, but one tiger ate only one or two people at a time. Now one derailment or airplane crash eats hundreds of people. When personal safety was just a matter of avoiding tigers, we could take precautions, we could walk on tiptoe. But, now there is no way for a passenger to ensure his safety against a derailment or airplane crash. This is an example of ‘the dharma of opposition’. For everything, there is an opposite; good opposes bad and confusion opposes understanding. What is true opposes the false."

 

MR. FOX: "It’s not the planes, trains, and other machines, but the people who build, use, and maintain them that cause the accidents."

 

MASTER: "that is true. Disasters result from karma, from the actions of living beings. Therefore, one cannot say that the machines are either good or bad.

 

"Two thousand years ago, if people had been told about airplanes, buses, and other self-powered vehicles, they would not have believed that these could exist. Moreover, it might well have been worshipped as a god. But now, we know that a plane is just a plane, a thing made by man, the fruit of scientific and technological progress.

 

"Hydrogen and atomic bombs have existed in this world for a short time, but if you think on a larger scale, considering all of time and space, then you will understand that these phenomena are quite common. Now man is able to fly to the moon, but going to the moon is just the play of children. From the point of view of small children, it seems very special, but from the cosmic point of view, it is just as it ought to be. When a child has a new toy, he treasures it, thinking that he is the first to have it.

 

"Every world system passes through a cycle of four periods: birth; dwelling; decay; and emptiness. A kalpa is a long period of time, measuring hundreds of millions of years. One thousand kalpas are equal to one small kalpa; twenty small kalpas are equal to one middle-size kalpa; and four middle-size kalpas constititue one great kalpa. When a particular world system passes through the four periods, it completes one cycle. In a cycle of one great kalpa, each period of change lasts for twenty small kalpas. Over such long periods of time, the new becomes old and the old becomes new again. The same is true of people. We are born, we grow up, we grow old, and then we die. The cycle continues as we are born, and grow up, grow old, and then die. The principle is as true for people as it is for countless aeons of world systems."

 

MR. FOX: "Now that lunch has been eaten, we digest the food. In the same way, the wisdom which you speak is also being digested. It seems that from the beginning people have not changed. Our brains continue to think without stopping so we invent more and more new things. Because of this ceaseless thinking, although the inventions may change, people remain more or less the same.

 

MASTER: "Yes, people continue to think and invent, but who tells us to think? Is it this physical brain? When a person dies, certainly his brain still exists, but although it continues to exist in the corpse, it no longer performs the function of thought.

 

"All these inventions are really not new. They have been before. A person who wishes to study all-knowledge will find that after ten years, he has forgotten many of the things which occurred ten years before; after twenty years, he will have forgotten a little more, until as an old man he will have forgotten the events of his childhood. In the same way, all of these inventions have been before. It is just that people have forgotten that they once had them, and now they discover them once again.

 

"For example, originally I wrote characters vertically in columns, as they are normally written. Then I began writing horizontally from right to left, and then back again left to right, line after line down the page. The characters, however, were to still be read in the usual way, in columns. Everyone was greatly surprised at this. But now, after having seen it for a long time, they no longer think it special."

 

MR FOX: "Many things are this way, but no one takes the trouble to ask why, to investigate the source of this continuous change and renewal."

 

MASTER: "This question of ‘why?’ is basically a matter of man’s limitless potential. Everything lies within the power of the true mind of man. Therefore it is said, ‘the ten thousand things arise from the self-nature of living beings, and are not separate from the self-nature.’"

 

MR FOX: Do you believe, then, that we are capable of determining and controlling the course of our individual destinies?

 

MASTER: It is not fixed. What happens to us depends on what we do, and what we want to do. You can become president and so can he. I too can become president. It only requires that we expend the necessary effort and do what is required to reach our desired goal.

 

Individual destiny is not a matter of dictatorship as it is with ‘god’, who makes it very clear that he is the only one, the supreme being. The Buddhadharma includes everything and everyone. In the Buddhadharma, anyone who cultivates can accomplish Buddhahood, and everyone is capable of cultivating his conduct and thought. In the Buddhadharma, equality is found even in the realm of the Buddhas. All Buddhas are equal. It is not that some Buddhas are bigger than others, some taller and some shorter, some better and some worse, some lighter and some darker. All Buddhas are in accord and they have no mutual obstruction.

 

This principle differs somewhat from that of ‘god’, who says, "I am the greatest. I created the world and I am the most pure. I am the ultimate reality!" In reply to this ‘god’, one might ask, "Well, if you are the only real one, why do you hang around with all these phonies?" Or one could ask. "If that is really how it is, why do you have to tell everybody? That’s certainly not very modest." Only the naïve and stupid say, "Ahh, yes! He is real."

 

Many people in the West do not yet believe in the Buddhadrama. They think that it is just superstitious mysticism. Yet, at the same time, they establish and practice a religion with just one god who says, "I am god." Well, anybody can say that: "I’m god! No! I’m god’s dad. Jesus said that he was god’s son; well I’m god’s father." This is all just talking. Ultimately, to recognize what is real, we must examine the principles which are taught.

 

MR. FOX: Yes, there is a great deal of ignorance and misunderstanding among Westerners with regard to Buddhism. This is strange considering the great advancements made in communications. Of course, it seems that truth and falseness are communicated with equal speed.

 

MASTER: Good and bad as well as true and false exist only because people recognize them as such. Originally there is no true and false; people establish them. So, what you think of as true is true, and what you think of as false is false.

 

In China, the leader of the Tai Ping Rebellion gained his power by calling himself god. He would say, "The spirit is coming, closer, closer, here it comes…Ah! Here it is! Here’s what has to be done!" He spoke as if he possessed the power of god and led a revolution which lasted for ten years. But when the revolution was over and the sword fell, ‘god’s’ head went with it.

 

In the AVATAMSAKA SUTRA, it says, "Everything is made from the mind alone." Science, technology, and philosophy, all progress…where do they come from? They come from the mind. All things are produced from the mind of man. So, in studying the Buddhadharma, it is essential to realize that everything is made from the mind alone, and that there is nothing outside of the mind.

 

MR. FOX: It has been said, "Astronomically speaking, man is insignificant." But astronomically speaking, man is the astronomer. Who, then, is insignificant?

 

MASTER: People are not small and the universe is not big. If there were no men, then there would be no universe. If it were not for men, there would be no ghosts and no Buddhas either, because it is only men who recognize them. If there were no men, what possible function could the Buddha perform. It is all made by us, and we are part of it.

This does not accord with the position of god who says, "I alone am true: you are all false." God does not say that ordinary men are god and god is just ordinary people. But in the Buddhadharma, it says, "Living beings are just the Buddha; the Buddha is just living beings." There is no inequality. It is not said that the Buddha is real and living beings are false, because without living beings, there would be no Buddha. Buddhas come from living beings. To talk of one being true and the other false has no principle.

MR FOX: I have read that there are many sects in Buddhism. What about that?

MASTER: All religions, as well as everything else, are manifest in response to the karmic conditions of living beings. The Buddhadharma is no different from any other religion. The more principle you understand, the les it is necessary to discuss little points. The more expansive the principle you speak, the closer you approach truth. Originally all religions were established to regulate conduct, so that men would not do any bad, but instead offer up all good. But as soon as men discriminate, sectarianism appears, and mean are soon offering up all bad. Where sectarianism develops, there is often a great deal of quarreling. The Catholics say that they have the true doctrine and that the Protestants are heretics, and so forth. Then the Buddhists say that only the Buddha teaching is really full and complete. Well, this talk of Buddhists is not too bad, because fwhat is truly full and complete accomplishes its substance from those parts which are not in themselves complete. What is truly complete must include everything which is incomplete. Without the incomplete, it would be impossible to speak of the complete. But, this is still just talk.

 

One day, a visitor to this temple asked me, "isn’t it true that Buddhism is higher than all other religions?" I told him that there is no high or low with respect to religions. Religions are simply medicines to cure the ills of men. After having taken enough medicine to completely cure the illness, why continue to take medicine?

 

Here in the West, it is taught that this world is made by god. Alright, but if god made this world, then why did he do such a poor job? Why is everything not just and equal? Why is there so much trouble in this world?

 

The Buddhadharma explains that everything is the result of the karmic causes and conditions of living beings. It is not the case that I or anyone else tells you to do what you do. Nothing you do is imposed from without. All manifestations are retribution for the karmic actions of men.

 

It is said by many that god made the myriad things. If so, why did he do it? Did he do it so that there would be someone to respect and worship him? If this is really the case, then this ‘god’ is certainly selfish.

 

The standard of proper conduct is not a matter of this being right and that being wrong. Proper conduct accords with true principle. Everything which happens in the world is in perfect accord with the interacting conditions of cause and effect. Your son, for example, could not have come here if he did not have co-operating causes, the karmic conditions. How much the less could he become a bhiksu? I know that before he came here, he was really very lazy, but now as the conditions ripen, he has become constant and vigorous.

 

MR. FOX: I see that my son has really found the right path to follow. This pleases me. I only regret that we live so far apart. If it were more convenient, we would all be able to see each other more often.

 

MASTER: There is nothing which is apart from your own self nature. Think about the principles we have discussed today. If you fully understand, then even at a distance of ten thousand miles, we are face-to-face. If there is no understanding, then even at the time when we are face-to-face, we are ten thousand miles apart. This is really true if you practice the principles which you understand.

 

For example, in the book which I have written, The Record of Water and Mirror Turning Back Heaven, there are accounts of events in the life of the Venerable High Master Chang Jen, who was the abbot of a temple where I lived in China. No matter how far apart we were, he knew exactly where I was and what I was doing, and I knew where he was and what he was doing. We were like this every moment of every day, and yet we needed no telegraph or r adar. Is this miraculous or not?

 

MR FOX: That is truly inconceivable. (end)

Copied from Varja Bodhi Sea Monthly Journal August 1970